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No thanks, take me back to the meme zone! Like us on Facebook! Note: Work in Progress. The speech also has been edited to match his accent. Shown Below "Tehre is noh time to beh lohst! Battle Brothars! We have plehced numerous beacons, allowing for muhltiple, simuln-tehneous and devashtehting defensive deep strikes The Codecks astartees nehmes this maneuvah Steel Rehn.
Meanwhile oua ground fawses will ensue the full defense of oua headkwaters We are the spehss mahrens! The codex doesn't support thi Indrick Boreale Uploaded by Lurko. Indrick Boreale Uploaded by Cale. Indrick Boreale Uploaded by Matthew Michaelson. Top Comments Delete. Battle brothas!
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Custom Space Marine Chapters. Little Metal Boxes?!! Principal's Skinner "Pathetic". Tomboy Mandalorian. Jordan Peterson. What bothers me is when people start to talk all big and mighty of the seting. They build them so we can have hilarious battles where anything goes. Wow, that would explain so much actually Just picture this, deep inside the golden palace, a group of humans, demons, eldars and ethereals sit togheter and drink hapily while assisting to the direct videos of the battlefield and awe and laugh as tanks are blown up by punches and the bodies pile up.
Heck, I'd pay to see that! Well you still haven't actually provided an example for that. On Armageddon it was the ork titans that did for the imperial titans. The actual troops themselves did nothing but get shot and die. Go read the Necromunda rule book, if you want to know more - for all but the elite, Hives are not nice places to live even by modern standards. The majority of Necromunda is about the underhive. That's where the terror is, that is where the existence is bleak and your life hangs on a knife edge.
However, a hive like Necromunda has a population the same as that of the entire planet Earth. In our own system we have people whose existence is incredibly bleak, and whose life hangs on a knife edge. Even in first world economies there are those who suffer terribly because of poverty, preventable disease and malnutrition.
To expect a hive city to be a paradise is completely unreasonable, especially considering the unusual geographical and cultural pressures such a system would create. The vast majority of the population of Necromunda are hive workers. They live in a regimented caste system, they have food supplies, power, water, education and jobs.
It's not a great existence, but it isn't a horrible one either. A lot of the negative factors of their life are things that urban dwellers in western society also have to deal with. Polluted air, low job mobility and processed foods are the main strikes against the Necromundan system, but the only thing our urban society has over them is a higher degree of freedom in job selection. Orkz handle Titans with everything from Stompaz to heroes.
Wazdakka Guttsmek and his flaming trip through the void shields of a Titan is the best example. Yep, that's also what I love in WH40k. With the hapless adventures of Ciaphas Cain on Picture in Picture? The Emperor, Horus, Eldrad Ulthran, Commander Farsight who complains about the Ethereals lacking the necessary sense of humour, that's why he left , Tzeentch and the Deceiver. Edit: That would actually make Ciaphas Cain the equivalent of Rincewind. I really don't want to upset you I reserve that for Talkkno , but I don't see how you can draw that a feudal blacksmith can repair one from the fact that it doesn't have a lot of advanced technology and that you can you a variety of materials to repair it.
You'd still need a departmento munitorum field workshop mentioned earlier in the same book or someone who knows the basics. Even if it is a very simple and basic tank, it's still a tank. I think you may be getting stuck on the definition of repair as it would apply to this situation.
I could easily see the blacksmith running into a part he has no clue how it works ripping it out and replacing with a much lower tech version of the removed devise. And it will probably sorta move even if it needs to be pulled by horses. If an ork can "fix" a tank a blacksmith can. Yes, I think some people are getting their time periods off a bit.
I assume by "feudal era" we're talking AD ish, maybe a bit earlier or a bit later. However steam powered didn't really come along until the s, well past a feudal system and into the industrialization and urbanization phase of things. While the technology to work on and repair steam powered equipment is much less then combustion engines or many of the technologies used in 40k, its still not something anyone can do without having a practical knowledge of the technology, how it works, and what it needs to be repaired.
Just like your average blacksmith couldn't repair a high pressure steam line, your modern welder would also have no clue as to how to make horse shoes or the various other tools blacksmiths make and use. Even though they work with the same materials, it is done in such a completely different way that very little of the skills to do either are transferable to the other.
Sigh, here we go again. Oslecamo's recollection of oficial citations to show how WH40K infantry can pwns titans v3. They're just like anything else. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. The brave warrior faces his fear and the Titan, and kills the enemies of the Great Brother-Warrior Horus.
The Titan's steps shake the land beneath our feet, lightning is in its veins, and the sun is in its heart. The shadow of the Titan weighs upon our hearts, yet we fight against it. My knife and my gun-of-light will conquer, and the Titan's death scream will be my prayer, for my weapons shine with courage.
But when you look at your comrades remember that they have the power to kill the monster. And remember this: the Titan's crew knows you have the power to kill them. Crush them underfoot, by all means. But do not ignore them. Battlefields are littered with the wreckage of Titans whose crews ignored infantry.
But can you point to an actual incident in which Titans were destroyed by infantry shooting at it? Boarding actions I can understand, and it could well be boarding actions on damaged Titans that your first, third and fourth quote refer to, with the second being a zealot reciting propaganda. But I know Titans appear impervious to small-arms fire in the stories I've read involving Titans, to say nothing of their void shields Hereticus, Titanicus, Mechanicum, the Titan comic strip.
The closest I've seen to this would be a Chaos Terminator lord hunting a Warhound Titan - the smallest kind - in Storm of Iron, and that Warhound had to suffer damage from an armoured column of Land Raiders and their lascannons first. You certainly can't hope to destroy a Titan in 40K with lasguns, and I don't think you could do it in Epic, either.
Chaos Terminator Lord? The hell did he do to that Titan, looked grimly at it until the Machine Spirit got frightened and fled? Sounds about right. This'd make the Orks the biggest threat. I mean, you know the instant they find the TV room, they'd start trashing the place, and eat all of the pizza. Gork and Mork just aren't good houseguests.
This is, if guardsmen themselves brag that they can take down titans with handheld weapons and the crappiest in the galaxy since we're at it , what to say of orks who can cut stuff just because they believe they can? Statement one is bluff hard man bravado. Statement two is clearly propaganda.
Both should be immediately discounted as true evidence of infantry being able to kill titans. Statement three is interesting in its non specificity. How are the infantry killing the titans crew? Swarming over a burnt out wreck? Launching a boarding action? Statement four is correct. It would be wise not to underestimate infantry. They can definitely share a role in killing a titan. Drawing it out of position, scouting its location, acting as a defensive screen, damaging it's shielding.
The Imperial Titans in the second war of Armageddon met their downfall because they were brought out of position to attack infantry. There is a difference between statements and examples however. Show me a canonical engagement where basic infantry have successfully killed a titan. Fiind me an example of Ork boyz beating a titan with axes alone, which is your assertion. On the other hand, you could look for examples where Titans were not defeated by Infantry, and filled a vital role on the battlefield.
Macragge, Armageddon and a plethora of other campaigns show that titans are an effective and vital part of the Imperial defensive efforts in large scale combat. It wasn't just him, admittedly, a whole army was assaulting a wall - the Titan was defending a wall breach, and was damaged, so it wasn't very mobile.
Bad news for a lightly-armoured Warhound. When close, the Lord crippled the Titan's ankle with his power fist, brought it down, and then shot into the crew compartment with a meltagun. So, is the legendary paradise of the most loyal servants of the emperor in fact merely being the guy who orders pizza?
Also, when Abaddon comes by, do they all glare angrily at each other and laugh as soon as he leaves? No when Abaddon comes by they start laughing immediately. Well, Eldrad, Tzeentch, and the Deciever are all there. I'd assume a more complicated plan of petty cruelty. Like pretending his crusade almost worked, and the chaos gods will think him better than Horus if he just manages to do a little better Divine Comedy I don't really have anything against you, after sci fi debating is merely a excersie in testing logic and scientific knowledge for mere entrainment as far as i am concerned.
On that note however, you have yet to give a quote illustrating the superiority of Tau technology. In some regards its best to go with stats rather then with fluff, because the vast majority of fluff is written from the perspective of the Imperium and they all have the Imperium's propaganda built into them, that no matter what the Imperium is better then everyone else.
And the codex are always doing the same thing, where they act like whichever army the codex is for is the best ever and no one can beat them. If you go by the clearly one-sided fluff then you would be lead to believe that guard and marines are nearly infallible except when it comes to chaos, where they are fighting other marines, just evil.
If you want to compare how the Tau technology is better look at the fact that their base weapon is str5 AP5 and longer range, and a bolter is only str4 ap5, and a bolter is high end technology for the guard at the sub-vehicle level. The technology from their ships is pretty clear too, some of the best guns in the game, and versatility and maneuverability that Guard vehicles have little ability to match.
Yoh we're talking about WH40K here. People believing in something it's enough to make it come true. And if the guardsmen believe they can defeat something, well, that something is going down. Yarrick and Cain in particular had enough strenght of will to use orkish weaponry at full power, wich shows that propaganda and bravado by themselves is a very strong weapon in the WH40K universe, strong enough to take down titans aparently.
Let's put it this way-the larger titans carry infantry of their own to counter enemy boarding atempts. This means boarding is a very viable tactic, and you need to be prepared for it. It also means infantry is indeed a menace to the titan if it manages to get close enough. It's pure logic actually. Let's review the war for armagedon: -Titans charge the ork horde alone.
Now, if they self-destructed, it means they were desesperate, and means one of two things: 1-They didn't manage to defeat the ork titans-stompas before being defeated themselves. If it's 1, then the guard and marines had to been able to destroy stompas whitout titans of their own or the orks would've conquered the planet right there with their own unstopable titans.
If it's 2, well Either case, infantry unsuported by titans was able to take down enemy titans, otherwise the conflict wouldn't have kept going for so long if one side had a weapon the other couldn't counter. You don't actually have any evidence of this. Find me the account of a titan actually being killed by lasguns, as opposed to a blatant piece of propaganda.
Well yeah. It's not really the same thing as killing a titan though. A boarding action is an attempt to kill the crew, but it leaves the war machine itself intact. The titan is fine, but inoperative. Not the infantry. Except that it isn't pure infantry.
It's infantry, artillery, airforce and tank columns versus titans. It's also possible that a large portion of the ork gargants were rendered destroyed or inoperable by the self destuction of the Imperial titans. Where are you getting this from? Why don't you qoute from Fire warrior then? If you belief in basies is so heavy. My word, just drop it Talkkno.
I'm not going to say anything in this thread for quite awhile anyway. I just took offense that you immediately decided to contradict me on entry to the thread, then continued to do so to my every word for the next few pages. I like playing better anyway. Question: to what degree do Inquisitors have authority over each other?
Say that an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor thinks it would be a good idea to co-opt some Tau or Eldar tech to put down a group of secessionists in record time, but an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor considers this an unforgivable sin. Can the Ordo Xenos one simply declare the other a heretic and hunt him to death without any retribution from the Inquisition as a whole?
In the process, could the Hereticus Inquisitor declare the Xenos Inquisitor a traitor to the cause and subsequently kill him without any consequences? Or do they have some sort of system for dealing with these disagreements? Generally you allow a fellow Inquisitor some leeway in the performance of their duties.
Give them your council, but let them make their own judgements. If one seriously thinks that the other Inquisitor is committing heresy, then they can demand for the actions of the accused to be brought under scrutiny at a conclave of Inquisitors, with an Inquisitor Lord presiding over affairs. If the actions aren't able to be explained, then punishment will be meted out accordingly.
If the accused Inquisitor refuses to submit to this then execution is perfectly justified, and wouldn't really raise too many eyebrows. As much as what Selrahc just said sounds off-the-cuff and made up, it does from memory accord pretty closely with what happens in the Eisenhorn trilogy by Dan Abnett. Of course, in the same trilogy there's also an Eccelsiarchy member who unilaterally decides that Eisenhorn should be executed, so there's the right way and then there's the right way Inquisitors in the field seem to be some of the most autonomous forces in the whole of 40k.
So while it would take an inquiry and official orders for an Inquisitor to be directly ordered to take down another Inquisitor, it's entirely possible for one who is already in the field to decide, on his own initiative, that somebody else is dangerously rogue and has to be taken down. The Inquisition will want proof of the heretic's crimes when he gets back home to report, but while he's in the field an Inquisitor has the authority to do almost anything he feels like.
It should also seem pretty close to what happens in the Daemonhunters codex, Dark Heresy and at least one of the Ciaphas Cain books Duty Calls. Well, since a titan was never alive to begin with it's a machine , then killing it is indeed impossible. Heck, by those conditions no titan was ever killed! All hail the invincible titans, wich even after striped of their delicate internal circuits from the boarders still count as nonkilled!
Even if blasted to little pieces by demoliton charges in their internal weak points they wouldn't count as killed, because the pieces are still there, they're just "inoperative" now. Excuse me for thinking that capturing an enemy warmachine and stoping it from blasting your own forces would be as good if not better than finding a way to turn it into a living and breathing being and then killing it. They're alive alright, and they can be killed - Titans are unusual in that they genuinely do have 'machine spirits' of a kind.
Ever since Adeptus Titanicus, Titans have been described as having an animalistic sentience that each Princeps communicates with when he links up with the Titan, as well as something similar to a soul - if the Titan is too badly damaged, that soul goes out, and the Titan is considered dead, as no amount of repairs will restore it. Ok, seriously now. You know good and well what Selrahc meant.
Surely you've seen "kill" used in places other than referring to the literal cessatation of organic life functions? The context of his quote shows that "kill" means "stop, render non-functional without utter destruction". This puts aside what SmartAlec which, incidentally, seems a better name for you said about the Titan Machine Spirit. Am I correct in my assumption that Caiphas Cain, Hero of the Imperium, was named by picking two biblical names in order?
Unless I am mistaken, in a list of all biblical names, Cain comes directly after Caiphas. Yes, I'd guess so, although the name of the high priest of the Sanhedrin was spelt differently. Alright, I'm just going to throw a little piece in here ; While it isn't possible for wieght for fire from infantry to take down a titan, Meltabombs, or Tankbusta bombs MIGHT be able to hurt them. And if you can hurt something, you can kill it.
Enough tanks beat titans. And both sides had plenty of titans, anyway. And Titans aren't the end-all weapon, thier great, but can't end a war by themselves. Excluding Titans vs Hive city. Sandy Mitchell the author has confirmed that this was done deliberately, due to the biblical connotations.
Having read all of the books, I'm not sure why these names are significant in context to the character. Anyone care to shed some light on the matter for me? Well, Cain is forced to never settle down, IE, to flee perpetually, but at the same time he's protected by God from anyone who would harm him.
Sounds fitting. Cain is a bible reference but the "right after each other" isn't true. It's spelt Ciaphas, with the "I" in front of the "A". Ah, good point. Which leads me to Then the Lord replied to him, "In that case, whoever kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over. Or, as we know it to be; 'Jurgan'! Did you even read the post to wich I replied?
Because Selrach claimed that a "inoperative" titan counted as nonkilled. Your second name suits you perfectly indeed. MorhgorRB:Almost any weapon you can put in a tank you can put in infantry. IG has heavy weapon teams with lascannons and rocket launchers and orks have tanbkustas, and even the basic infantry of both sides can carry some of these anti heavy armor weapons, allowing them to make a nice hole in the titan to pour inside and kill it from whitin.
As far as heavy weaponry go, lascannons and missile launchers are pretty "light" in the 40K universe. Do you see IG walking around with battle cannons? Or maybe volcano cannons? I thought not. Well, more accurately they lack significant recoil. Lascannons may be extremely heavy for all we know, but even a Guardsman can fire it without becoming a red stain on the wall behind him.
An Assault Cannon, on the other hand, may be light as a feather but it better not be but nobody except for superhumans in the very best powered armor Humanity can make can hope to fire a burst without the gun flying back into last week. And I was responding to your ridiculous "all hail the unkillable titan" crud. I wasn't responding as a fanboy. I was responding as someone who's seen the word "kill" used legitimately.
The post I quoted was just hyperbole that does nothing for your argument. Neither do your ad hominem attacks against me, especially since you don't know what my screenname means. I will say he'd be right. In the context of what he was speaking of a boarding action taking out the crew, but leaving the machinery intact and easily salvageable , I don't mind it not counting as a mission kill.
If its completely intact, it's not mission killed. Blowing a leg off, slagging most weapons, something like that would be a mission kill. Back off a sec. I have a question, concerning Bolt Pistols. Also, bolters are expensive, but that's not relevant.
Anyway, with that in mind, what's up with bolt pistols. In artwork they appear to be very large weapons, a "Pistol" in shape only. But I've heard them described that is, the ones used by normal humans without powersuits , as being concealable, and as being carried and used like a normal pistol. I won't get into the fact that you would need some serious arm strength to even consider using a weapon of that size with one hand, but about how big are they supposed to be?
For the Emperor mentions alot of aristo's at the govenors ball having ceremonial bolt pistols as sidearms. If they are the size they appear in the artwork, that would have been very awkward, like strapping a couple ceremonial bricks to your legs. First off, heoric scale minatures dont show what I am about to say well, but this is how it works. There are several patterns of bolter and bolt pistol around.
A space marine bolter isnt an imperial guard bolter. The same applies with the blot pistol. Of course, ceremonial bolt pistols aren't really made to be functional. Bolt pistols provided for field use by Inquisitors and Commissars and such are small enough to be used by normal hands, but the ceremonial models are probably Space Marine-sized for the sheer impressiveness of it. Well, I don't know if it counts, but the Dark Heresy RPG mentions that the Bolters pistol, rifle, and heavy that most people use aren't anywhere near the same size or effectiveness as the ones the Space Marines and Sisters use.
It's spelled Ciaphas, with the "I" in front of the "A". Actually, the biblical personality, according to my bible, is spelled Caiaphas, I suppose I missed that second 'a' earlier. I guess Ciaphas Cain only has 1 biblical reference in his name, not two. I looked the guy up in a bible I found in a library round here, apparently, they spell him Kaiphas here.
Actually, as far as I know, that isn't the idea. Bolters aren't only expensive to make, they must be blessed by specialized tech priests, and then the ammo itself is blessed and carved round by round, wich is a quite lenghty process. All in all, it's basically impossible to mass produce them. Lasguns on the other hand were specially designed to be easily mass produced and that's why it's the most used weapon in the IG, and they can be reloaded out of sunlight and fireplaces if needed.
However, elite guardsmen and inquisition who distinguish themselves in the battlefield can and will be awarded those blessed bolters as both effective weapon and status symbol. And as far as the TT rules care those bolters are as effective as the SM ones. Other thing you have to take in mind is that bolt pistols are suposed to double as melee weapons. It's kinda hard to do it with a small light gun so extra plating is added so it can be used as heavy mace whitout risk of breacking it.
KnightDisciple:I can't hear you anymore over all the personal attacks. When you actually want to discuss WH40K fluff say something. Let's not get this fine 40k thread locked for flaming, please :smallwink: Presumably, Sandy Mitchell either changed the spelling of Commissar Cain's name from the bibl version, or had that particular romanisation in that particular edition of the bible. In any case, Word of God says that both names are biblical references.
A question! What sort of creatures might the Tyranids use to eat a planet after resistance has been utterly crushed? Rippers, of course and flying rippers ; also Malanthropes to gather particularly useful bits of biomass. Digestion pools, spore chimneys and capillary towers would cover the landscape. One fluff article, which I've now lost, briefly mentioned burrowing carnifex-like creatures which somehow gathered geothermal energy. Since the Verdis 8th are on a world where the Nids mostly finished with the locals before they arrived, what might they see wandering around before the combat bugs turn up again?
Non-canon creatures are fine I've already described a currently nonexistent orbital lander - just any stuff that looks cool and weird and possibly eats people. You want ideas for possible post-attack nids? This one is kind of silly, but what about a biovore-like creature that launches rippers at birds? Or a psychic nid that has a "vaccum" power to suck up biomass? Imagine how many pidgeons we could kill with that thing Especially if it launchs winged Rippers.
Nothing better than a bug the size of a dog, flying around after flocks of pidgeons. A swarm of bugs, each the size of a dog, flying around after flocks of pidgeons. Right now. I imagine the vast majority of the beings the Tyranids use to collect the biomass will be of a microscopic level. Extremely efficient bacteria, and such. Then, I could also imagine there being some massive, hulking creatures that serve only as walking depots for the biomass - more efficient to have the rippers and other feeding organisms all move to the closest "transport", be devoured by it and then transported to the closest bioship or tube with which they pump biomass to the ship , than having all these creatures walk the distance on their own.
Now I'm imagining an organic space elevator Hey, if I had more time, I'd have a go at that drawing :smallbiggrin: Using psychic powers to help harvest biomass would be interesting. A few other ideas: A Warrior variant which cuts down trees, perhaps using some sort of pincers. A snake-like creature, somewhat like Trygon or a big Ripper.
Would have Malanthrope-style sacs on the side to store biomass. Possibly contains rippers growing inside it - a kind of one-use transport vehicle for other Nids. A large flying creature with some sort of hose to lift up animals. Similar to the above, but sprays some sort of solvent to make the environment easier for Rippers to digest. Yeah, I don't know what it is either. Of course, some of these lead to the question "why don't the Nids use these to fight the planet's defenders?
Particularly the one which sprays a solvent everywhere, but also the fast-moving transport snake? More seriously, maybe it's just way too vulnerable to use on a battlefield. So, anything is made better by there being two of it? Cool, let me try it. There is an upper limit, but it is somewhere higher than 4.
How anybody managed to have multiple wives is beyond me. With two of them I could conquer New Jersey and Delaware at the same time. Get both my nut-farms and my breeding grounds in one fell swoop. It is scary.
Now what would I do with three of me? Take down Space Marines. That's what I'd say. In some sort of 'Protect the Big Ones' way, the Fleet keeps those sorts of things in reserve. Alternatively, maybe they do use them, but nobody ever noticed in 40k canon? Because they leave no survivors? So, after reading the new SM codex - specifically, the fluff bits, I decided to reread Fulgrim. And, as it happens, I now have a theory as to the identity of the Legion of the Damned It may, sadly, take some time to explain.
We have the original Chaos Gods. Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle. These were fully sentient by the end of M2, with Khorne and possibly the others - unsure being brought into existence by humanity. Skip to M29 - the Eldar accidentally bring Slaanesh into being.
As such, we know for a fact that mortal beings can, essentially, bring gods into being - the warp essentially being emotion and feelings personified into a chaotic mess and, in these cases, sentience. Now, this is the part that's harder to explain. But, as before, bear with me a bit. Perhaps there is one more Chaos God than we thought. Beyond all of his actual race in power and psychic potential. I do, of course, refer to the Emperor. Now, I'm not saying he's some daemon.
What I'm suggesting is more along the lines of he desires to be a god - as the Horus Heresy books imply, as the Inquisition maintains. As the entire Human race believes. So, maybe he has, to some extent, ascended into Godhood.
Not a true deity, more an image of one. All of the Chaos Gods currently have a certain portfolio. Khorne - war, skill at arms, death. Nurgle - disease, rot, decay. Tzeentch - long thought out plans, change.
Slaanesh - sensation, NSFW parties and pleasure. Looking at the Horus Heresy books and then the aftermath, it seems that perhaps the Emperor has ideals of his own. Namely, betrayal. Even if one does not believe the Chaos Primarchs about him abandoning them on his quest for godhood, he has obviously betrayed humanity - assuming he is still conscious and capable of communication. He's still broadcasting the Astronomican, so maybe he is. Humanity is hell to live in by the time of M He has a presence in the Warp - the Astronomican, and perhaps his actual consciousness has left his body and moved on.
Maybe that is why the Astronomicon is waning. Onto the Legion of the Damned business. This doesn't really require the above - just the assumption that the Emperor has an extremely powerful presence in the Warp. As I said before, rereading Fulgrim. At the point that Horus virusbombs Isstvan, a cry is felt in the Warp, psykers brains melt etc. This feeling of betrayal is so profound that perhaps the echoes in the Warp stayed far beyond what they would have normally. A million voices, crying out in pain and suddenly silenced Not too long after this the final battle aboard the Horus' battle barge takes place.
Emperor mortally wounded and transferred to Throne and so on. He starts to turn all of his mind - what's left of it - to the Warp. Nothing else he can do, really. Already established that as a stupidly powerful psyker he has a fairly strong warp presence. Perhaps approaching that of a Chaos God - after all, he doesn't have every single daemon in existence trying to burst through on him, one would have succeded.
They exist as no more than emotion in the Warp - hatred of Chaos, hatred of their old chapters who betrayed them, hatred of their former brothers. And as for where they come from: they are the dead from Isstvan. Their armour is covered in fire motifs, reflecting their last memories - the fire of battle, the scouring fire that covered the planet after the virus bomb, the fire of the final orbital bombardment on the cathedral they resided in. The bones are reminiscent of their deaths. Their boltguns shoot firey bolts - which I'm translating to, essentially, gobbets of fire - which would suit them well; harder to fabricate bolts from nothing than fireballs.
They randomly appear and disappear, which could be the Emperor sending them back and forth. They are now nothing more than burning desire and unquenchable hatred, appearing to rescue their fellow Marines from the fate they suffered themselves.
That's nice and all, but I don't see why the old theory can't stand. I mean, they were stated to be the remains of the Fire Hawks back in the day, and the new codex still presents that as a theory and the "extension of the Emperor's superhuman will" just sounds like Imperial propaganda to me. Additionally, there was a fifth Chaos God, who did deal with betrayal.
His name as Malal, but he was removed due to a copyright issue. He is hinted at though, some of the Chaos Space Marine colour schemes GW has shown off have his insignia on notably the Sons of Malice. Basically what I read from this is "The emperor is now what malal was ment to be. First off, legion of the damned were a chapter of marines with physical bodies.
A body cannot become a daemon as they exist purely on a spiritual level, it would need to be reforged into a daemon, losing anything that it had when alive including memories I assume this to be the case for all souls becoming daemons as its been made clear that that happens to those who die from nurgles rot. I have also never seen a reference to them being summoned, just appearing.
Next up, if they were daemons, they would have to gain their boltguns and armour from the forge of souls. If that were the case, then why would they be covered imperial symbols. Small goblin like creatures made them, not a big glowy gold man. If you are perhaps saying that they are the armour and there is nothing inside, maybe that could pass. Anyhow, all my points could be argued away, as could yours. Surfice is to say, I dont think that daemon space marines is likely. Malal's thing was hatred.
He didnt betray anyone, he never had an aliance with the other gods, just an eternal war a bit like gork and mork. The references are also all but gone now. Those who worshiped him moved on the ogres of warhammer fantasy being the major one, starting to worship something I believe to be a kind of tyranid , the sons of malice are no longer found referenced in material of GW and the dread axe being completly removed from the game.
His "thing" was the nature of Chaos to tend to destruction, even of itself. So the betrayal could easily fall under that. As far as I can recall, the Ogres never worshipped him as a race, only Skrag the Slaughterer did that, but they retconned that with the Ogre Kingdoms book. They're only dating back to March '05 for the WD article featuring them, and we take as canon plenty of stuff older than that. The emotion Malal represented was hatred. Not all ogres worshipped malal, but there used to be a few dozen warbands around, before ogre kingdoms changed all that.
And yes, nothing saying they arent around, but nothing recent says they are. With the advent of the 5th ed Guard codex, I was thinking of starting a Guard army, and since I have have a friend who plays Blood Angels, I was wondering whether Baal, home world of the Blood Angels, hand any sort of IG regiments? I think I've read somewhere that SMs generally have IG regiments from their worlds for when they need some backup, but I'm not certain.
Another problem with Lorn's theory: the Legion corpses and their coffins have been identified as being Fire Hawk gear by their serial numbers. The world would have a PDF although, when you Space Marines on your planet, you hardly need one , just like all worlds. Although an actual Imperial Guard regiment would be unlikely. Since all the best and brightest of that particular world would become Space Marines. And Space Marine-controlled worlds are exempt from the Imperial Guard tithe that all planets usually have to provide.
So, I'm going to say "No". Space Marines call on the Imperial Guard in general, and perhaps a regiment or two might be stationed on a homeworld. But, originiating from a Space Marine recruiting world? Probably not. Even if the Chaos Emperor wanted to fake his demons up to look like Space Marines, I doubt he'd bother forging serial numbers on their gear.
That's just what Tzeench wants you to think! But, originating from a Space Marine recruiting world? That really depends on the type of world in question. Take Necromunda for example - one of the biggest, and probably the oldest, of the Hive Worlds.
With a population numbering in the tens of billions it supports several IG regiments and is a recruiting ground for the Imperial Fists Chapter albeit one of several, so perhaps the demand isn't as high as it would be if they were used exclusively. On the other hand, Baal - or at least, the inhabited moons of that world as the main planet is all but uninhabitable - is a post-apocalyptic Feral World with a tiny population of diseased, often mutated, partially irradiated savages eking out a pathetic living by farming dirt.
Thanks for the response. I'll just have to come up with another idea. Incidentally, two things, can Space Marines, of, say, Captain rank, shanghai Guard regiments on their sayso alone? Like Inquisitors? Seen it at my local Borders. No, even Space Marine Chapter Masters are only allowed to 'request' support from other forces - while their political power and influence may make that only a trivial formality in some cases, in theory it can still be denied.
The idea is that the Space Marine Chapters serve the Emperor directly the Chapter Master is usually required to justify his actions to the Imperium, but ultimately he has the final say in what his troops do and where , while the Imperial Guard is controlled by the Imperium on the Emperor's behalf. Essentially, they're two separate entities serving the same Master.
This is done so that no single force can ever again rise up with the same amount of power as the Horus Heresy - the Legions were split into Chapters, the Imperial Guard and Navy were made separate entities, and all 3 are controlled by different people who need to negotiate amongst themselves AND with the Administratum and Ecclesiarchy in order to get anything done.
Galactic Safety achieved through the overwhelming power of Red Tape, essentially :smalltongue: And, said friend-who-plays-BA's birthday is soon, and I was wondering if the Blood Angels Omnibus is any good? The Blood Angels stories are reasonably good in terms of quality - I've seen some very dire things pass as "authorized fiction" in my time, and thankfully James Swallow is one of the better member of the craft - but I ultimately found that the books aren't much fun because they're about Space Marines.
Being the super-human, uberpowered representatives of Mankind and the Emperor, it's very easy to spot the 'designated heroes' and after that there's no sense of risk. The Bad Guys can't possibly win, because 1 they're fighting against Space Marines and 2 it would defeat the Status Quo that has been maintained by Games Workshop for the last 20 years if they did.
But that's just a personal opinion, and I feel the same way about all Space Marine-orientated novels in general, so if you LIKE that sort of thing then they're really good examples. And I play Eldar, which makes me biased, but hey; no one's perfect :smallbiggrin:. As was mentioned, technically not even the chapter master could. In practice, however, I'm sure even a basic space marine or a sergeant would be able to commandeer quite a sizeable force if they asked.
Remember, Space Marines usuallly have decades of fighting experience, and usually are the most qualified people around to lead a force of the guard. And of course, if the guard refuse the "request", the marine in question can always shoot the guy in charge and ask the second-in-command if he can take charge. As far as the blood angels stories go, Their good.
As far a Blood angels having an IG regiment on Baal, unlikely, given that they are already drawing the best warrior from the planet, and that the system is comparatively sparse on population, I can't see the entire system adding up to a guard regiment, especially considering how primitive the tribes from which the BA draw their numbers, it would be an army of cavemen. Mephiston had no choice. I don't know why everyone loves him. What I don't understand is why Dante hasn't just pointed to all his best warriors.
Dante: "You, you, you, and you. Go get yourselves trapped under a building for a week or two like Mephiston. Don't come back until you've conquered the Rage. It also seems like it would be a better use for the Death company. I mean, Hey, their a great unit, for 1 battle, then they die.
Instead take all the death company marines, drop buildings on them, and in about 2 weeks the Blood angels will have an army of Psykers that fly, stun, inspire, and swing a force weapon all on the same turn. Now they may not have enough force weapons, psychic hoods, or artificer armor to outfit these troops, but they will still be significantly awesome.
So if the blood angels started crancking up real super soldiers at a good rate, soon they would be declared super-heretics and either be cleansed or destroy the emperium itself. It also doesn't help that the Blood Angels have already tried it, and so far only Mephiston has the willpower to become super-super-powered, rather than just an insane cannibal. In theory, anyone who joins the Death Company and A survives the next battle and B then goes on to 'calm down' so as to no longer be driven by an insane bloodlust will be of comparable fortitude to Mephiston - that's all it'd take, at the very bottom line.
The unfortunate fact is that they simply can't do it. The Black Rage is too powerful for EVERYONE with the singular exception to date, and all the rest either have to be put down on the battlefield or are locked in a dungeon for the rest of their natural lives which, provided that they avoid mortal injury, could be an awful long time given that Blood Angels can live for over a millenia even before they're sealed into a Dreadnought.
And probably for good reason - It's been implied by the prologue to the Blood Quest graphic novel that if you take an 'average' Death Company Marine and drop a building on him, he will eventually crawl his way out and eat everyone on the planet. And again any hopes for logic in the WH40k universe is mercilessly crushed.
Well, time for a question of my own: Why is sorcery heresy in the imperium of man? Yeah, sorcery it's all dark and dangerous but: 1-Cannibal super psycopaths are ok. So, all in all, the emperium really doesn't seem to have much trouble using dark and dangerous tecqniques, so why is sorcery so specially hated?
It would even allow a whole new dimension of grimdarkness as SM sorcerors need to master the dark teqniques to slaughter inocentsheretics more effeciently. And then we could have sanctioned sorcerors for the guard. And witches for the witch hunters. Sorcery isn't heresy, uncontrolled sorcery is. The Imperium uses plenty of psykers, but those are all the ones that they can keep on a tight enough leash or whose loyalty and sanity they find trustworthy enough.
It's the ones who are too dangerous to attempt to control that are deemed true heretics and put down to prevent them from either falling to Chaos or accidentally opening a gate to the Warp. So, Psykers are just sorcerers the Imperium doesn't want to kill yet. But what's up with Grey Knights, anyway? If you really want to get all witty, get your facts straight, good sir. Well, they are probably not OK. But are YOU going to tell them? Blood Angels, if youa re refering to them, have a very short fuse even in normal mode, and Space Marines take their independence really serious.
The best they can do is decline your request to euthanize their men, or, as the curse could affect everyone, their entire chapter, thereby robbing you of one of your best weapons. The worst they can do is decide to start their own party and go rogue, or turn to chaos. It's a lose-lose-situation, either way you try it. Aaaand again, no.
Even so, psykers have to do constant exercise to strengthen their mind and their body. And they are always kept under close scrutiny and killed without hesitation should they act suspicious. The gain is higher than the risk. Again, end justifies the means. Plasma weaponry allows a single infantryman to melt down targets much heavier armed than him, including fortified buildings and tanks.
And even if they blow up, only one man is lost. Sad, but, hey. Plus, plasma weapons often are quasi-religious artefacts of old, and carrying them is a great honor. Without the Astronomican, warp travel would be impossible. Without warp travel, the Imperium would disolve into quarreling, biggering nation states.
But it's not like they blow up planets on a daily basis, Exterminatus is the really last, everything-has-been-tried-andthe-planet-is-truly-lost approach. Remember how the Russians defeated two invading armies by the scorched earth tactic? It's basically that, just a bit bigger.
And at the time the planet is blown up, it's no longer their's, but the enemy's, and jugded to important to fall into his hands. Seriously, you didn't even try this time. And, it may be new to you, but Warhammer isn't logic. Why is there so much argument over the Blood Angels, when the Flesh Tearers are a quadrillion times worse? At least the Blood Angels are trying to fix it. The Flesh Tearers don't even care that they're psycho, it's encouraged.
Seriously though, what did you expect when you name a Chapter "the Flesh Tearers? No sorcery is something specific. Sorcery is the enacting of daemonic pacts to fuel psychic powers. Psykers use their raw ability to influence the warp, and were deemed okay by the Imperium at some big council. Sorcerors were deemed to inevitably be tainted by their daemonic associations, and thus outlawed.
As to the list of things which are ok: 1. Cannibal super psychopaths are not really "ok", so much as they are a thing that almost everyone doesn't know about. The flesh tearers are one hideously undersized and under equipped chapter, that often faces heavy censure for its activities. That nobody has yet organized a hunt to kill them doesn't really show that they've got the Imperium's support.
It's difficult to bring Space Marines to account for their actions. The psykers who can rip a hole in the warp and bring an army of daemons through it are few and far between. They are never in Imperial service, since the Imperium lobotomises psychics in the sanctioning process to prevent just that kind of thing happening. Well it shows a lack of concern for Health and Safety regulations The risk involved in having a man portable weapon that could kill anything you're ever likely to come across is that it might kill or injure you.
I mean that was the principle behind early firearms, and people still used them. Unless you are saying that Maurice LaPlace the 16th century arquebusier is a dark and dangerous technique to rank alongside the ritual summoning of daemons Those psykers are volunteers. By lighting the beacon, they keep their god alive. By lighting the beacon, they keep the imperium alive.
To let it go out would cause the doom of humanity. Exterminatus is a nasty event, done in the worst case scenario. To be unwilling to consider it is to be unaware of the universe in which you live. Sorcery is outlawed because the minor benefits of using it are far outweighed by the major major costs.
Every sorceror falls to Chaos. Chaos is the great enemy. I don't recall the Thousands Sons chapter, who tried to use sorcery to stop the Horus heresy, to be associated with any demons before the space wolves tried to kill them all. If anything, sorcers should be considered more trust worthy, seeming that none of the psykers managed to sense Horus going nuts, but the thousands sons managed to do so. Again this isn't true as far as I readed.
There's plenty of stories of things going horribly wrong when a imperium hard working psyker loses control and something horrible warp-based happens, and every single psyker with some power except the SM ones is keeped under constat threat of several guns should he lose control. And even then it isn't enough. Comissars in particular seem to be trained to shoot them first and ask questions later should they start acting in any way strange.
Well, sorcery can be a very powerfull tool. Demons can be sealed, so even if they're an indispensable part of sorcery, I don't see why not enslaving ssome demons to do the emperium's biding. Perhaps some, but last time I checked most of them were dragged to this fate kicking and screaming all the way. And again, if the emperium is willing to sacrifice lifes to fuel something powerfull, why not sacrifice some lives to fuel sorcery to help themselves?
I just wonder why they never seem to use it in the enemy planets. It's always send in enough guardsmen and SM untill the planet is a sea of blood:smalltongue: Sorcery is outlawed because the minor benefits of using it are far outweighed by the major major costs. Creating unquestionable loyal almost unkillable servants is a minor benefit? Bending demons to your will is a minor benefit? Being able to preview the future is a minor benefit?
Sorcery is regarded as psyker power with steroids. Sure the user will feel tempted to be corrupted by his newfound power, but hey, the emperium is adept at brainwashing. I'm sure something could be worked out to use Currently, sorcers always fall to chaos because they have no other chance, as the Emperium considers them extra-heretical.
See the Thousand Sons chapter. They tried to use sorcery to help the emperium, and the Emperor rewarded them by sending viking furries space wolves to kill them all. Plus, whitout chaos there wouldn't be emperium in the first place! It's thanks to the warp that great feats of psykery and sorcery can be acomplished. Whitout warp you don't have faster than light travel and astropaths and can't keep up the emperium.
Chaos isn't the enemy. It's a tool wich is currently being badly used. Just like whitout the Void Dragon there wouldn't be any more technological advances at all. The thing is, as soon as you say demons, it's over. Demons are just no. Inquisitors might get away with binding one to a demonhost, but even they will most likely have to answer for what they did as soon as it is discovered, if they are not just hunted down.
Demons are the Enemy, and even if it might be controlled the risk is even greater than with psykers. Look at the Inquisitor-series demonhost, and all these seals and esoteric gimmicks, and they barely keep him inside, if you want the kind that is really powerful. Demons are a constant threat, even moreso than psykers. They are dangerous to no end.
Demons can't really be harnessed on a greater scale unless you decide to roll with what they want and go chaos. And of course you read stories about psykers going berserk.
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However, because of the odd accent Boreale was given, his words come off oddly pronounced with unusual emphasis. The phrase roots itself at one of the Four Gods of Chaos, Khorne. His private realm in the Warp is said to be filled with rivers of blood and that he sits upon a throne of skulls, made from all who die in battle, hence, Skulls For The Skull Throne. In the game, Humanity has come to worship The Emperor of Mankind, who led the Great Crusade to restore humanity to the stars, as a one true god.
The violent nature of the universe, coupled with blind faith, has led to a church rule of mankind. As a result, Heresy and blasphemy are the worst crimes a person can commit. It is common for "Heretics" to be used as living fuel, burned alive, have their soul shredded, or as the case is on the battlefield, summarily executed. Ursarkar E. Creed more commonly known as Creed is the leader of the Imperial forces of Cadia.
He is known for having a unique rule called "Tactical Genius". The rule allows him to infiltrate nearly any unit under the Scout-Special Rule. However, many of the things he can infiltrate make no logical sense, such as divisions of vehicles, Titans, and many other things. The chapter members are known their red trimmed, bright yellow armor, unorthodox fighting style, and being constantly angry. Lots of fanon have been created around this chapter .
View All Videos. View All Images. Out of all the criticisms and complaints directed towards "The Lord Inquisitor Prologue" some valid, some not the one that most baffles me is "the main character is an edgelord". An edgelord character… in 40k. That's like complaining that water is wet. He's not even that edgy. Isn't this the same universe that features everything from murder-happy torture elves who consider rape to be a funny pastime to unbirthed demonically tainted supersoldiers missing all their skin created by adolescent boys into genetically altered woman who suffered a warp tainted run in with the side of the internet Miss Fortune loves to frequent?
About Warhammer 40, a. History The game was created by Rick Priestley and Andy Chambers in as the futuristic companion to Warhammer Fantasy Battle , sharing many game mechanics. Hot Fuzz, but its Deathwatch Warhammer 40, Uploaded by Jazz Wizard. Hot Fuzz but it's Deathwatch Warhammer 40, Uploaded by Soup King. Warhammer 40, Uploaded by Wrazid. Top Comments Delete. Oh but he's smarmy and taunts a man while torturing him, he's too edgy.
Although it is true that the majority of the Chapters certainly venerate him in an orthodox manner, others just scream his name a lot because that's tradition. The exact degree of Emperor-worship in the Space Marine chapters is a bit mushy. Some openly refer to the Emperor as the God-Emperor while others are outright contemptuous of the idea. Captain Zachariah Kersh , later Chapter Master, was such a nah-sayer but was converted by his experiences during the destruction of the Cholercaust on Certus-Minor.
This could mean that among the various Chapters the exact degree of veneration of the Emperor could be entirely a personal choice rather than explicit doctrine. But again the inconsistencies therein make it hard to judge. Alternatively to this theme being a result of lazy writers is that it is in fact a clever but under-developed effect of the progression of the plot of Warhammer 40k. Such that by the end of the 41st millennium, things are so awful that even the Space Marines seek resolve in the worship of the God-Emperor.
The problem is that it took 3 Space Marine Chapter books in 5th Edition to come up with a Space Marine Codex framework that didn't suck almost nothing in C:SW is non-competitive or poorly priced , which is why Long Fangs are usually 50 points cheaper than their Space Marine counterparts, while being twice as effective. Why are Devastators supposedly more expensive? Combat tactics. Yeah, you're never going to use it. The Ultramarines in particular are an extremely popular choice of Space Marine Chapter, and their blue design coupled with the small size of the miniatures often leads to them being referred to as "Smurfs.
The Space Marines of today look very different from the glory days of Rogue Trader, when they earned the nickname " beakies " because of their signature helmets. They never have any supporting evidence for these theories and it is not clear whether or not Space Marines are allowed to have sex, which Chapters would allow them to have sex, if they even can have sex, if they're still capable of normal human reproduction, or what bits they may or may not still possess.
Still, that doesn't stop anyone from stating their personal opinion as if it were fact. The most revealed is that a female Inquisitorial henchwoman got an eyeful of a naked Grey Knight novice and was rather impressed by what she saw. The Grey Knight, naturally, had no idea why she seemed so interested. An interesting point to note is that right below this segment on the right is an image of a Marine with a loin-cloth. If there is no modesty to protect, why protect it? One suspects that the reason Marines aren't afforded the luxury of sex aside from distraction from serving the Emperor , is that they'd kill whatever unfortunate woman or xenos livestock they take a fancy to.
The point is, due to psychological conditioning and likely the sterilizing effects of the augmentation process, followed by a century plus of service to the Emperor in radiation and toxic filled environments, they are simply disinclined towards it, and wouldn't result in any more meat-shields for the Emperor's glorious wars regardless, thus only serving the arch-hedonist.
Knowing just what the fuck was waiting for humanity in space, the Emperor of Mankind designed the gene-seed , nineteen special organs to enhance the regular human body to keep the Space Marines going when fighting these monstrosities. Over a series of several years, human adolescents, dubbed aspirants, are selected through a rigorous process which varies from Chapter to Chapter.
They are always male, with cited reasons including that Astartes are basically clones of their Primarchs, and by extension the Emperor, and that the geneseed requires portions of the Y-chromosome to function. When their training goes to the next stage, the aspirants are implanted with the initial gene-seed.
They then become neophytes, Space Marines in training. As the gene-seed is implanted into them, the neophytes also go through hypnotic conditioning to hone their responses. By the time they're done, the subject has few impulses beyond fighting and killing in the name of the Emperor it's sometimes thought that this is what kills their sex drive and most of their memories of their earlier lives are all but forgotten. The only mental frailties remaining are a "fear" ATSKNF notwithstanding of failure and experiencing notable stress when severely injured or crippled, as they are no longer able to fulfill their function.
After receiving all these organs and conditioning, it's highly arguable if a Space Marine still qualifies as human. Though the Imperium of Man has basic "kill on sight" orders for most non-humans and venerates the "Holy Human Form", the topic of whether or not Space Marines violate this edict is ignored, mostly because they were designed by the Emperor and thus considered holy creations.
There is also an understandable hesitance to declare war on the only thing standing between the Imperium and the unfathomable evil of the Chaos Gods. In fact, this religious need to adhere to the Holy Human Form may be why the Emperor designed the gene-seed to be a bio-enhancement project and not a genetic modification one; all of a Space Marine's inhuman abilities are a result of the artificially engineered organs shoved into their bodies during their creation, either directly the secondary heart or multi-lung or indirectly the Ossmodula, which alters their hormone balance and makes their skeleton growth go berserk.
Consequently, this means a Space Marine would technically pass a genetic scan of being "human" better than an abhuman like an Ogryn or Ratling would. The holiness of the Human Form came long before the Horus Heresy, so this theory is likely, anyways.
Besides, the Emperor did attempt genetic modification but it proved either fraught with peril ie. The Thunder Warriors or painstakingly expensive Valdor claimed that the entire productive capacity of the Imperium would be unable to generate anything else if Custodians were the primary forces. Gene Bio-enhancements are also much more conductive to mass-production. Of course, so long as the genetics are merely added to the human genome instead of drastically changing the genome, then it can easily be argued the enhancements are no different than using technological tools like auspex or lasguns.
Yes, this tramples all over the spirit of the law not really, adding to something is just that; addition whilst technically adhering to the letter, but it's hardly unique -- see the Ecclesiarchy having its own army of power-armored gun-toting nuns despite being formally forbidden to have "men" under arms. Another theory is that the Space Marines were designed this way for more symbolic reasons. Done this way Marines retain a link to humanity; all were born human, no more than any other citizen.
They became more through science and training but they aren't some new species or a warrior caste. As Marines they are beyond humans but they know where they came from. The regular citizens see the Marines as the best of humanity, proxies for the Emperor's power.
The Marines remember humans are their kin and while they are more than human they are still the same species, all coming from the same root. The power vested in them doesn't pass by blood, it passes by merit and a normal citizen can still aspire to become an Astartes even if it's a long shot. The Emperor's whole deal was based around humanity, so he built something that could be a symbol to all humanity. He could have bred a new war species but he altered us because his dream of the Imperium was the dream of humanity.
Symbolic difference, sure, but it matters. There's a reason Space Marines are venerated not feared. Incidentally, bio-enhancements like the gene-seed are actually more controllable than a genetic enhancing procedure would be, since the resultant outcome is more predictable, more easily mass-produced, and it means that even if a Space Marine could have kids, they would in all likelihood not be different from ordinary humans, since their abilities aren't tied to them on a genetic level, though they would be far more likely to become Space Marines since some amount of genetic compatibility is required.
It is also noteworthy that as a possibly unintended side effect of their geneseed, Space Marines are enormously well endowed. This is evidenced in the first book of the Horus Heresy series, whereby a Remembrancer described a naked Captain Loken as being "equine. Fanboys and opponents constantly argue how strong Astartes are. This entails unfavorable comparisons to super soldiers like Custodians and Thunder Warriors, or comparisons to Ogryns and Imperial Assassins.
The crunch can give reasonable estimates, but things like tabletop balancing show its limitations as broad indicators of performance Guard officers have more wounds than Astartes recruits! The fluff and writer subject Astartes potency to many fluctuations, from absolute gods of battle to DOW1 opening redshirts levels of incompetence.
Fans, BL and Codex writers all agree that Astartes are extremely powerful and resilient, with great tactical acumen see Astartes - Part Three. Most fans agree this representation of them is more canon than most video game trailers looking at you DOW 3.
Astartes Pt. It is not difficult to create super soldiers in the Warhammer 40, Universe. Examples going as far back as the early Great Crusade show that humans can be brought up to near-Astartes or equivalent strength through various surgeries that do not involve gene-seed. Presently, just about every militant Imperial arm has their own equivalent of super soldiers, ranging from the Ordo Hereticus and the Sisters of Battle to the Adeptus Mechanicus with their various Skitarii forces. Some cultures such as Necromunda's House Goliath even have the facilities and resources to enhance their throwaway population to levels of bulk and savagery that outright exceed Space Marines, so when reduced to sheer combat potential a Space Marine doesn't appear to be that special.
A Space Marine's true "strength" lies not with his muscle power or his resistance to injury but in the fact that he is trained and drilled to fight at optimal strength, regardless of whatever battlefield he finds himself in. A Space Marine is capable of fighting centuries-long campaigns, eating toxic foods, surviving in irradiated environments with little to no atmosphere, not requiring sleep, not worrying about the effects of zero-gravity, and more.
If he is lost without resupply he can consume the genetic information of local fauna or his enemies to survive, else he can enter hibernation until he is recovered. If he is injured, the wound will seal in mere moments, preventing further damage through blood loss or infection. If he is killed his progenoid glands can be used to create more Space Marines in his place.
More importantly, he is disciplined to a level far beyond the scope of an ordinary human soldier and is highly resistant to the psychological trauma inherent to participating in long, bloody wars. None of these things translate to tabletop rules so they typically get discounted when trying to compare one to the other, but the context of a fight can be supremely important. For instance, an Ogryn certainly could not survive underwater or in methane atmospheres and would choke to death before the fight even began.
It is unclear if other superhuman lines can do all of these things: Custodians are most likely equal if not superior to Astartes in most respects, but they are far more difficult to produce than Space Marines and are too valuable to waste on standard military operations. Thunder Warriors certainly couldn't do everything and indeed were never intended to survive past the Unification Wars , while Assassins are subject to different upgrades that are more niche to their function.
All of them might be physically more powerful than a Space Marine, but either take up more resources to create or are simply unsuited for other tasks. The lifespan for Astartes is something of a tricky subject. Perhaps most central to the issue is the question of whether or not Astartes are biologically immortal.
Nick Kyme also appears to be a believer in the immortal point of view though more in a sitting-stone-gathers-moss-and-lasts-forever kind of way , as in his Salamanders series, an Astartes survivor from the Horus-friggin-Heresy was found in a crashed and buried Salamanders starship. His armor had melded into the metal of the ship and he could no longer move, but he was alive. He had apparently been sitting there watching over the empty, ancient suits of armor from his fallen brothers for ten thousand years.
He was also borderline crazy from all the memories filling his head thanks eidetic memory, but then if he had human memory he'd have Alzheimers or something and his vocal cords and muscles were desiccated, but the latter are implied to be due to atrophy from inactivity more than anything else so that doesn't count.
Nick Kyme also touched on the subject in Fall of Damnos, with a Tactical Sergeant remarking that he did not know himself if Astartes could die of old age, or that even if they could he had never heard of it happening - indeed, it would be a dishonor to the warrior lifestyle of a Space Marine to do so. The Night Lords series by Aaron Dembski-Bowden is another in the "for" catagory, at least in that the Astartes refer to humans as "mortals," and Talos, at just years old, is apparently considered young for a Crusade-era, unwarped traitor Space Marine.
David Annandale has also made allusions to the longevity of the Astartes. This has been reaffirmed in the current Blood Angels Codex, and it should be noted that it was written by GW's biggest Space Marine fanboy. Yes, even Ward says Space Marines can die of old age. Even Abnett has flip-flopped a bit on it, with Brothers of the Snake admittedly his first time writing Space Marines portraying the apothecary Khiron as starting to slow down with his advanced age and not being quite as fit as he used to be.
The Space Wolves also have a dedicated unit representing their more senior members in the Long Fangs. While the canis helix certainly plays a part in their aging, it is also implicit that these warriors represent a more traditional "warrior elder. Other things you can handwave or retcon, but the Black Templar vs the Black Legate is as close to sacrosanct as you get. Unsurprisingly, BL tends to be inconsistent with their lore.
There's 2 reasons for this. However, they wouldn't want to anger the part of the fanbase that doesn't want Astartes to be biologically immortal, so GW must be deliberately vague on this. This is retarded because the god-like mystique comes from their immortality.
Removing immortality would demote the Astartes from demigods to super-special forces, lacking much of their awe. The people who don't want the Astartes to be immortal are whiny bitches who want their own armies to seem more impressive by dragging the Astartes down to a mortal level. Which is pathetic and probably heretical. Others have tried to argue that biological immortality would limit the incentives for Heretic Astartes to seek demonhood, but these people fail to make a key distinction.
The inability to die of old age doesn't remove the threat of injury or death. On the other hand, ascending to demonhood leaves you unbound to physics and immune to death, instead being banished for a time. For those wondering, Chaos Marines who remember the Horus Heresy but lack demonhood aren't considered for this debate due to warp fuckery. The Night Lords and Alpha Legion are an exception since their location lacks warp-taint, but it's unknown if any of them are from the Horus Heresy.
Regardless, the true measure of an Astartes is their killing potential. If Astartes can die of old age, they'll more likely die in battle before age takes its toll. If age DOES take its toll, then the loss of potency due to old age will get them killed anyway.
However, being slowed down by old age doesn't count as dying of old age. General estimates place the average Astartes life expectancy at years, becoming a venerable elder and certified badass if they exceed this span. On a more grimdark note, the Horus Heresy series shows that Astartes are vulnerable to mental traumas like PTSD thanks to a lifetime of war in the meat grinder. It's possible that instead of old age, it's the weight of mental trauma that slows them down.
Dan Abnett never wrote those books of course, who believes that Big E wouldn't make super soldiers vulnerable to mental trauma no galactic ruler worth their salt would allow such ailments to happen if they can prevent it. Others have argued that mental trauma is endured in training, and continues until they become proper Astartes hardened to such struggles. While normally above mortal shortcomings, the greatest flaw of the Space Marines is their hubris.
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